Worship Weblog

Bellflower Book Group – Second Meeting

Posted by cicw

Wednesday, August 19th, 2009

Book Groups

We invited 30 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
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What insights does the “six stages of faith development” theory provide for you in developing the ministry of your congregation? List some insights for your congregation.

• We noted that we had never read Fowler’s six stages from the perspective of worship (but only in relation to church education). It was very interesting and enlightening to apply it to worship! We discussed stage one, how it would be interesting to ask little children to tell us what they like and what is important to them in worship. Preschoolers often ask deep and probing questions, like “Why do we need Jesus?” We need to make worship real for them, at their level.

• One person agrees with the book that a lot of adults level off at Stage 2 or 3; while we assume a higher maturity level, some abstract ideas or metaphors just go over their heads. If we are not aware of where people are in their development, we miss them. Children’s messages often speak to the adults, and adults may need worship space that’s aesthetically meaningful as much as children do.

• “A lot of adults who should be on top of the skyscraper spiritually are still playing in the sandbox,” said one pastor. It’s difficult to get them past the simple Bible stories; sometimes we need to go down to the basement to get to their level.

• A mother of young children pointed out that at Stage 1 it’s important for children to see their parents worshiping God. It’s also important to provide worship that considers the child’s development, and services that are child friendly and provide “space” for them. If not, then it’s better to bring children to something age-oriented in which they really learn something and are not bored. The key question is whether the children’s alternative is aimed at just “getting rid of the kids” (babysitting) or is intentional worship and learning. If we force children to stay but don’t welcome them or include them, they sense it. We discussed how it’s so ironic that we expect children to be still in worship, yet adults don’t even sit still!

After reviewing the considerations for ministry in pp. 51-53, which do you find most helpful and why? What else would you add?

• As a mother of a 14-year-old, one person really liked the idea of having a post-sermon discussion group. Her teen always resists sitting through the sermon, so as parents they show her outlines and go over the sermon at home with her. This has helped her understand things she missed while “listening.” One person noted that she sees teens texting frequently during the service.

• At one church, the 3-5 year olds leave the worship service for Children in Worship. They used to offer it through 4th grade but the older children got bored with it.

• Another church still offers a full church-education program during both worship services for preschool through 8th graders. A young adult who grew up in this situation said it was a good progression for her, and that as she got older the lessons got deeper and they had good discussions that were appropriate for her understanding.

• One of the churches offers a children’s sermon followed by children’s church for preschool through 2nd graders during the 1st service, and a full church education program during the second service. They are planning a major change next year in which they offer one worship service for all ages, followed by a church education hour for all ages.

• One pastor said he tries to preach to all ages, referring to some examples or stories that children or teens can relate to. He feels it’s good to have youth in worship planning. A youth pastor said we don’t give teens enough credit for how they think. In his experience the worship committee asked the teens to participate but they would not accept any “out of the box” ideas and kept tight control on worship.

• The minister for children and families felt grieved when the youth were asked to serve communion but had to have their hands spritzed with sanitizer in front of everyone right before serving. This is not done when the adults serve. Another person commented that because all of the children leave the service, they never even witness communion.

• Middle-school youth who attended summer camp came back asking why their church worship services can’t be more lively like they had at camp. The youth pastor said at camp the kids legitimately worship God, raise their hands, praise with tears streaming, running and jumping – a real spiritual high. But realistically that would be difficult to re-create in an intergenerational service.

• We discussed the importance of stories and rituals, and that kids as well as adults find comfort in and resonate with them.

• One pastor brought up a “good problem” they have in their church with a single mom who brings her five children to worship services but they are very restless and disruptive at times. Now other children want to come with her; she’s brought as many as 9. What’s nice is that others have stepped up to help her, and are coming alongside to help “enfold” the children into church, sit with them, and show them the rituals.

What example can we identify in our congregation of generation cohort differences popping up and creating disturbances or disruptions?

• One of the cohorts is that reverence means you don’t talk, don’t move in church. One of the changes we need to make is that in intergenerational worship we will have to force people to change that paradigm and give up the quiet atmosphere.

• Can there be a way to let people know there are cohorts? Can they agree to disagree about some practices, but not let it disrupt their worship? For example, if the drums seem too loud can they overlook it?

• Children are not the church of the future; if we buy into that idea, there will be no future church. We are all the body of Christ together, now. If we hold on to our own preferences, we will not be all inclusive. 1 Cor. 12 talks about diversity; we need to help people respect that everything has value to somebody. One person may appreciate the organ, but it’s not another person’s preference. How can we be the body of Christ together?

• With the OT Passover, each generation was to teach the next generation why something is important. It’s not biblical for us to just hold on to what is important, but we need to pass it on.

• As a young adult, one person said she is “irked” that people make worship about their likes and dislikes. “We’re all trying to open up ourselves to God, and have an experience with him.” Another person pointed out that we need to understand that those likes and dislikes are cohorts they were taught. So how can we manage the differences without chasing people away?

• One pastor suggested that the answer may be in ritual and sacraments; many sermons may go over people’s heads, but ritual has a way of crossing the generational spectrum. For example, he is moved by the ritual of people coming forward to partake in communion every week, whereas some people are content to just pass the elements in the row
s once a month.

• We then discussed whether there’s a danger in ritual become a regiment and people getting stuck in that. Then again, maybe it’s more a fear than a reality. Repetition of things we value doesn’t always become mundane or bland; sometimes it gets better. There’s power in ritual – it reminds us of all the other times we’ve done it. Think of reciting the Lord Prayer, Apostles Creed, or hearing the 10 Commandments.

• One person pointed out that sometimes when we are young, it may not mean as much to recite things, but as we grow up spiritually they become more meaningful and actually play in to our faith formation. Another person talked about growing up in a church were they took communion on the 1st Sunday of every month, and even when she left for a CRC church, she would go back to her old church for a year on the first Sundays so that she could have communion. She really missed it.

• That’s the whole idea of intergenerational worship, commented one pastor: We want kids to learn rituals and we want them to miss those rituals and need them as adults. Another pastor agreed; she said that while in college she maintained the ritual of attending church on Sunday mornings even after partying with friends on Saturday night. The ritual actually kept her from leaving altogether during that rebellious time.

• The youth pastor still felt frustrated that the rituals and the rigidness in his church snuffed out any new ideas or suggestions the youth had for songs or sermon topics. Another person said she appreciates that her church always allowed the youth to plan a service once a month, for everyone, so they had opportunity to make suggestions and participate on a regular basis.

Tags: bgbellflower, book group, Book Groups 2009, intergenerational, intergenerational worship